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 When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?

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Duriel
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PostSubject: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:05 pm

When you hit a certain spot on a monster thats made of tougher hide or scales than the other parts,
the sword/hammer/lance bounces off with sparks following...

But does it still do damage?
or is the damage dampened/ no damage at all.

This excludes elemental because i just killed a monoblos with an attack that bounced off but still did thunder damage (true devil slicer)
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:20 am

If I remember correctly, a bounced attack deals 30% of the damage the attack would have normally done, and sharpness is lowered at a faster rate. Elemental damage isn't lowered.

With the low damage and faster rate of sharpness loss, it's obviously a waste of time to bounce a lot, so try to avoid it.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Thu Aug 26, 2010 10:34 am

if you have ESP, bouncing is not a TERRIBLE idea, you still doing damage, you wont bounce and elemental damage still working, even without ESP

but you are using a weapon with no element, forget about it.

btw, hitting in the weakspot is always better than bouncing Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:52 am

Ecclesiastes wrote:
If I remember correctly, a bounced attack deals 30% of the damage the attack would have normally done, and sharpness is lowered at a faster rate. Elemental damage isn't lowered.

With the low damage and faster rate of sharpness loss, it's obviously a waste of time to bounce a lot, so try to avoid it.

I dont know where ur read that but thats not correct.
As I remember correctly damage is not lowered but sharpness is lowered about 4 times as fast.
When sharpness drops, so does damage so u will have a lowered damage in no time.
I am not 100 % sure of this but im pretty sure that 30% is not correct.
Hope this was helpfull.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:41 pm

yeah I dont bounce often i was just curious lol. thanks guys Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:05 pm

When u hit basarios and gravios u will get recoil with even purple sharpness, but u will deal same amount of damage as usual. that's only on basarios and gravios
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:12 am

Bouncing does lower the Raw damage. There may be exceptions, but that's the common result. Otherwise, it'd deal MORE damage over time with some weapon classes with the quick bounce animation, and that wouldn't make much sense.

Melee Damage FAQ by _DS31 wrote:
When your weapon has yellow sharpness, there are three things that
can occur to affect the outcome of damage. This is called a "correction
value." One is that certain attacks will halve your total damage
(0.50) while bouncing off reduces your total damage by 70% (0.30).
If neither of these occur, then there is no correction value (1.0.)

The Sharpness comment is apparently referring to a weapon without green sharpness that bounces no matter what; remember those fail Yellow weapons early on? Green weapons behave the same in higher ranks. It might not be an exact 70% reduction with green sharpness, but most of your damage is still subtracted in the end.


Nargakantor wrote:
if you have ESP, bouncing is not a TERRIBLE idea, you still doing damage, you wont bounce and elemental damage still working, even without ESP

but you are using a weapon with no element, forget about it.
Well, if you have ESP, you shouldn't be experiencing bouncing in the first place. It's a complete workaround to the bouncing issue.

The only situation where a bounce combo with an elemental weapon would be less than crappy tends to be based on Elder Dragons, and the Dragonslayer line, which has crazy high Dragon element, and a fast bounce attack. And even then, there are better options, even with a GS.

Quote :
btw, hitting in the weakspot is always better than bouncing Very Happy
Agreed.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:47 pm

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Bouncing does lower the Raw damage. There may be exceptions, but that's the common result. Otherwise, it'd deal MORE damage over time with some weapon classes with the quick bounce animation, and that wouldn't make much sense.

Melee Damage FAQ by _DS31 wrote:
When your weapon has yellow sharpness, there are three things that
can occur to affect the outcome of damage. This is called a "correction
value." One is that certain attacks will halve your total damage
(0.50) while bouncing off reduces your total damage by 70% (0.30).
If neither of these occur, then there is no correction value (1.0.)

The Sharpness comment is apparently referring to a weapon without green sharpness that bounces no matter what; remember those fail Yellow weapons early on? Green weapons behave the same in higher ranks. It might not be an exact 70% reduction with green sharpness, but most of your damage is still subtracted in the end.


Nargakantor wrote:
if you have ESP, bouncing is not a TERRIBLE idea, you still doing damage, you wont bounce and elemental damage still working, even without ESP

but you are using a weapon with no element, forget about it.
Well, if you have ESP, you shouldn't be experiencing bouncing in the first place. It's a complete workaround to the bouncing issue.

The only situation where a bounce combo with an elemental weapon would be less than crappy tends to be based on Elder Dragons, and the Dragonslayer line, which has crazy high Dragon element, and a fast bounce attack. And even then, there are better options, even with a GS.

Quote :
btw, hitting in the weakspot is always better than bouncing Very Happy
Agreed.

Just repeating what i said. Bouncing doesnt lower, sharpness does.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Fri Aug 27, 2010 8:37 pm

IT STILLS DO DAMAGE, BUT THE PROBLEM IT PUTS U IN YOUR NERVES THE WEAPON BOUNCING ALL THE TIME!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:51 pm

ok thread ended lol no arguing please! thanks all! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:07 am

Assasiin wrote:
Just repeating what i said. Bouncing doesnt lower, sharpness does.

If I was just repeating what you said, I wouldn't have said something very different from you. You're saying that low sharpness affects the damage, which is true. But bouncing lowers damage in a different way, and that reduction is 70%. The damage modifier for yellow sharpness is 100%, the bounce has a 30% modifier. Bouncing has a constant damage reduction. and the Yellow sharpness example was apparently put in to illustrate the different things that happen at that sharpness level, and because it's the initial sharpness level.

There's a reason people bring ESP to White Fatalis, and it's not just because they don't like the bounce animation. Bouncing destroys your damage, and I'm sure people have higher sharpness than yellow at White Fatalis.

Duriel wrote:
ok thread ended lol no arguing please! thanks all! Razz

Arguments are not always fights. Arguments are actually a very basic and important element of conversation.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:26 pm

hace to agree with u.... Just giving a good argument
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:50 am

Ok now..using ESP, striking only the solid spots, will the weapon still deals the same amount of damage ( because I see no blood coming out from the solid spots) and the sharpness will decrease as in normal rate?? 📖
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:06 pm

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Assasiin wrote:
Just repeating what i said. Bouncing doesnt lower, sharpness does.

If I was just repeating what you said, I wouldn't have said something very different from you. You're saying that low sharpness affects the damage, which is true. But bouncing lowers damage in a different way, and that reduction is 70%. The damage modifier for yellow sharpness is 100%, the bounce has a 30% modifier. Bouncing has a constant damage reduction. and the Yellow sharpness example was apparently put in to illustrate the different things that happen at that sharpness level, and because it's the initial sharpness level.

There's a reason people bring ESP to White Fatalis, and it's not just because they don't like the bounce animation. Bouncing destroys your damage, and I'm sure people have higher sharpness than yellow at White Fatalis.

Duriel wrote:
ok thread ended lol no arguing please! thanks all! Razz

Arguments are not always fights. Arguments are actually a very basic and important element of conversation.

False prove me that it affacts damage.
Bouncing cuts combos, cuts time, cuts sharpness -----> sharpness cuts damage. THats enough reason to bring ESP
Show me on a hacked psp with HP show that fighting a basarios with ESP deals more damage ( on shell) then without.


Some people on FAQ beleave that bouncing on diffrent colours of the weakness sharts reduces damage...
Ok well people beleave what they want, prove it to me and ill admit that i am wrong but saying things like it reduces damage to 30% is just plain bullshit, that refers to black spots being lower on damage, this does not mean that ESP will give u higher damage on black spots.
Just think about what i said, most ppl confuse things...
Theres even FAQs that say that bounces dont deal damage, if ur gonna beleave that well then ok, but b theres lots of ppl who beleave that, wich is just (again) plain bullshit!
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:48 pm

Well, looking elsewhere, and further in the document I linked, the damage reduction apparently only exists at Yellow Sharpness. I had made the assumption that it was an example, but it apparently only exists at that level. So lol.


Quote :
Ok now..using ESP, striking only the solid spots, will the weapon still deals the same amount of damage ( because I see no blood coming out from the solid spots) and the sharpness will decrease as in normal rate??

Well, if your weapon's sharpness is decent and you're still bouncing, it's probably hitting a spot that doesn't receive much cutting damage in the first place, which is why you see sparks and not blood. Sharpness lowers at the same rate as bouncing anytime you see those yellow sparks when you hit a monster/boulder. Your damage probably won't be awesome either way, just because of the area you're hitting(Element is unaffected, so go ahead and spam that SnS or what have you). Those areas tend to be rather resistant to damage. If the problem is a Basarios/Gravios, bringing a couple Large Barrel Bombs helps break his stomach quickly.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:03 am

Quote :
Well, if your weapon's sharpness is decent and you're still bouncing, it's probably hitting a spot that doesn't receive much cutting damage in the first place, which is why you see sparks and not blood. Sharpness lowers at the same rate as bouncing anytime you see those yellow sparks when you hit a monster/boulder. Your damage probably won't be awesome either way, just because of the area you're hitting(Element is unaffected, so go ahead and spam that SnS or what have you). Those areas tend to be rather resistant to damage. If the problem is a Basarios/Gravios, bringing a couple Large Barrel Bombs helps break his stomach quickly.


Let me see if I understood: ESP

-With ESP, even your melee weapon could cut through a solid spot, your weapon still deal the same amount of damage as if your weapon bounces.
-With ESP, melee weapon's sharpness decrease rate is the same as if your weapon bounces.
-ESP basically avoids your melee weapon's attack being bounced so you won't get caught in an opening and still able to deal some more hits.



Last edited by KaTaNa on Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:25 am

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Well, looking elsewhere, and further in the document I linked, the damage reduction apparently only exists at Yellow Sharpness. I had made the assumption that it was an example, but it apparently only exists at that level. So lol.


Quote :
Ok now..using ESP, striking only the solid spots, will the weapon still deals the same amount of damage ( because I see no blood coming out from the solid spots) and the sharpness will decrease as in normal rate??

Well, if your weapon's sharpness is decent and you're still bouncing, it's probably hitting a spot that doesn't receive much cutting damage in the first place, which is why you see sparks and not blood. Sharpness lowers at the same rate as bouncing anytime you see those yellow sparks when you hit a monster/boulder. Your damage probably won't be awesome either way, just because of the area you're hitting(Element is unaffected, so go ahead and spam that SnS or what have you). Those areas tend to be rather resistant to damage. If the problem is a Basarios/Gravios, bringing a couple Large Barrel Bombs helps break his stomach quickly.

Uhm yellow sharpness drops damage annyways in that order so that is kinda logical that that will also be if u bounce.
And as i stated sharpness will decrease faster.
I see u are typing a lot of propablies now and might be.
The thing is, you should not state such things without obvious prove.
A guide from someone on FAQ is just not enough, I bet i found 10 more guides that prove the contradiction from people that are in MH terms more graduated.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:45 am

Then feel free to link something. You trnd not to link anything in these dicussions, debates, whatever you call them. It makes you look like you think of yourself in this high position where people have to prove things to you, and no matter what they link or post, you just scoff at it and demand more. These discussions tend to feel one-sided at times because of that.

Hey, if I'm wrong about something, I'm more than happy to be corrected and educated. The last thing I want to do is misinform others. But if I'm the only one bringing forth sources, I'm just stumbling in the dark until I find out for myself.



Quote :
Let me see if I understood: ESP

-With ESP, even your melee weapon could cut through a solid spot, your weapon still deal the same amount of damage as if your weapon bounces.
If it's green sharpness or higher, it deals normal damage, but normal damage likely won't be that great. But in the Gravios example I mentioned earlier, it's the best someone like an SnS user can do until they break the stomach. Most weapons have a way around the bounce; the GS' Lv3 Charge, the LS Spirit Combo(the LS gets a free sharpness boost with a blinking gauge as well), the DS's Devilish Dance, and the Hammer's charge attack all have an ESP effect. Gunlance shells ALWAYS deal the same damage, which is good against things like Gravios or White Fatalis, even if it sucks most anywhere else.
Quote :
-With ESP, melee weapon's sharpness decrease rate is the same as if your weapon bounces.
If you see yellow sparks instead of blood, yes.
Quote :
-ESP basically avoids your melee weapon's attack being bounced so you won't get caught in an opening and still able to deal some more hits.
Yes, and it always increases your damage over time. There are exceptions where bouncing can increase damage output, but those are specials cases, such as bouncing un upgraded Dragonslayer(obscenely high element) against a White Fatalis in Armor Mode, racking up tons of elemental damage. For general use, though, you don't want to bounce.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:00 am

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Then feel free to link something. You trnd not to link anything in these dicussions, debates, whatever you call them. It makes you look like you think of yourself in this high position where people have to prove things to you, and no matter what they link or post, you just scoff at it and demand more. These discussions tend to feel one-sided at times because of that.

Hey, if I'm wrong about something, I'm more than happy to be corrected and educated. The last thing I want to do is misinform others. But if I'm the only one bringing forth sources, I'm just stumbling in the dark until I find out for myself.



Quote :
Let me see if I understood: ESP

-With ESP, even your melee weapon could cut through a solid spot, your weapon still deal the same amount of damage as if your weapon bounces.
If it's green sharpness or higher, it deals normal damage, but normal damage likely won't be that great. But in the Gravios example I mentioned earlier, it's the best someone like an SnS user can do until they break the stomach. Most weapons have a way around the bounce; the GS' Lv3 Charge, the LS Spirit Combo(the LS gets a free sharpness boost with a blinking gauge as well), the DS's Devilish Dance, and the Hammer's charge attack all have an ESP effect. Gunlance shells ALWAYS deal the same damage, which is good against things like Gravios or White Fatalis, even if it sucks most anywhere else.
Quote :
-With ESP, melee weapon's sharpness decrease rate is the same as if your weapon bounces.
If you see yellow sparks instead of blood, yes.
Quote :
-ESP basically avoids your melee weapon's attack being bounced so you won't get caught in an opening and still able to deal some more hits.
Yes, and it always increases your damage over time. There are exceptions where bouncing can increase damage output, but those are specials cases, such as bouncing un upgraded Dragonslayer(obscenely high element) against a White Fatalis in Armor Mode, racking up tons of elemental damage. For general use, though, you don't want to bounce.
The fact that in this discusion i will never even with hours of convo accept this statement is because i have had this convo for dosens of times over and over.
The way i see it is
that it all comes to the fact that u now are trying to cover that u actualy said bouncing of on a target reduces damage (to 70 % procent ) ?
Wich kida means that u CANT say that u are wrong so u are sort of contradicting yourself.

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Then feel free to link something. You trnd not to link anything in these dicussions, debates, whatever you call them. It makes you look like you think of yourself in this high position where people have to prove things to you, and no matter what they link or post, you just scoff at it and demand more. These discussions tend to feel one-sided at times because of that.

I remember a few times where i stated soething and u said just NO prove it without linking yourself.
It is not that i just said no no no.
I gave my opinion about this matter ( gonna call it my opinin before u start on me calling them facts xD)

U should kinda already know this since i think u said that u like to learn stuff about filosofy.


Ever rode:

Socrates and the art of irritating questions?
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:56 am

Quote :
The fact that in this discusion i will never even with hours of convo accept this statement is because i have had this convo for dosens of times over and over.
The way i see it is
that it all comes to the fact that u now are trying to cover that u actualy said bouncing of on a target reduces damage (to 70 % procent ) ?
Wich kida means that u CANT say that u are wrong so u are sort of contradicting yourself.

I think you missed where I corrected myself when I noticed my error.

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Well, looking elsewhere, and further in the document I linked, the damage reduction apparently only exists at Yellow Sharpness. I had made the assumption that it was an example, but it apparently only exists at that level. So lol.



Quote :
I remember a few times where i stated soething and u said just NO prove it without linking yourself.
It is not that i just said no no no.
Well, that thread was your guide and all. In an instance like that, the burden of proof is definitely on your end. If/when I ever write a guide, it'll be the same for me, just like anyone else who's ever made a claim. It's not that everythign a writer says is wrong; it's just how the flow of discussion and debate works.

Quote :
Ever rode:

Socrates and the art of irritating questions?

Yeah. He ended up getting killed because of that, if I remember it right.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:42 am

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Quote :
The fact that in this discusion i will never even with hours of convo accept this statement is because i have had this convo for dosens of times over and over.
The way i see it is
that it all comes to the fact that u now are trying to cover that u actualy said bouncing of on a target reduces damage (to 70 % procent ) ?
Wich kida means that u CANT say that u are wrong so u are sort of contradicting yourself.

I think you missed where I corrected myself when I noticed my error.

Ecclesiastes wrote:
Well, looking elsewhere, and further in the document I linked, the damage reduction apparently only exists at Yellow Sharpness. I had made the assumption that it was an example, but it apparently only exists at that level. So lol.



Quote :
I remember a few times where i stated soething and u said just NO prove it without linking yourself.
It is not that i just said no no no.
Well, that thread was your guide and all. In an instance like that, the burden of proof is definitely on your end. If/when I ever write a guide, it'll be the same for me, just like anyone else who's ever made a claim. It's not that everythign a writer says is wrong; it's just how the flow of discussion and debate works.

Quote :
Ever rode:

Socrates and the art of irritating questions?

Yeah. He ended up getting killed because of that, if I remember it right.


Yeah it seems that i might have missed that, sorry for that.

And yes well he did not get hanged becoz he asked questions all the time he got hanged becoz by asking those questions on top of questions he made some people ( realize/say) that woman where equal to man.
On top of other conversations but that one is the most famous in my opinion.
So i dont know why u refer to getting killed, but u can always give it a try Very Happy i live in belgium near to Brussel.
Just for the record, my fighting skills are not too bad so watch out Very Happy
Ok wow its so early, letters are getting burry and stuff.
So well ill add the conclusion of the topic later on and might close it then in a few days if noeone minds.
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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:20 am

If you think I threatened you, you really read my post the wrong way.

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PostSubject: Re: When attacks bounce off of a monster, do they still do damage?   Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:15 am

Ecclesiastes wrote:
If you think I threatened you, you really read my post the wrong way.


When did i speak about feeling threatened? That was just me having a competitive convo ( maybe not evene competetive)
Ull easely see the diffrence when im agitated...
I was just making sure that everyone understood the real answer on the topic and since i kinda did not see u saying that u held back upon your first opinion. I dont have time to read all new posts and topics but i try to, gimme a breack if i forget some from time to time, im just doing my best.
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